2 Stroke 500af vs 4 Stroke 450 - No Chance

by Frank
(Michigan)

The 2 strokes are faster than the 4 strokes cc for cc and proof of that is putting Bubba Stewart on a KX250 and have him turn the fastest laps he can turn then put him on a KX450f and do the same, their times would be almost identical.


This was done with the 2 stroke 500af bikes vs the 4 stroke 450s and the riders turned 2-3 second faster times on the 2 stroke 500s with the riders saying it felt like they were going slower on the 2 stroke 500s which implies the power wasn't wearing them out and it wasn't too much to handle.

If you ask a factory sponsored rider on a 4 stroke 450 which is better, they will say the 4 stroke. But what they say in private among their peers is another thing entirely. Why would they admit that the 2 strokes are faster when their bread and butter is involved? That would be financial suicide.

This all comes down to money from initial purchase price to maintenance/parts/shop time because the 4 strokes are 30% more expensive from the dealership with way more parts to buy when rebuilding them or maintaining them. And unlike a 2 stroke that just about any decent wrencher can throw a new top end into, the 4 stroke will need a professional mechanic for big bucks to fix.

There might actually be something to the tree huggers being upset over the environmental issues (when aren't they upset?) but this all boils down to money.

Just like when quality steel was hard to come by for the Japanese so they sold us on aluminum frames being lighter and stronger. But what they didn't tell you is that it takes twice the amount of aluminum to get the strength of a steel frame, and the aluminum framed 4 strokes are heavier due to this fact, plus they will stress fracture before the steel ones do no matter what they want you to believe.

Try to remember the last time a business like the AMA and the bike makers really did something in our best interest? It's about the bottom line and selling you what they make you believe you want because they told you it was the best :)

I hear the 4 stroke guys saying things like "the 4 stroke puts the power to the ground better" or "the 4 stroke is easier to ride around the track" or "the 4 stroke doesn't wear you down like the 2 stroke" lol. And if everyone went back to 2 strokes we would hear the riders up on the podium and the casual riders on the internet telling us why the 2 strokes were better.

Why do you think racing exists? Remember when the manufacturer winning in Nascar sold the best on the dealership floors? That's why brand recognition was such a big deal and the reason winning was so important. It's the same thing for motocross or drag racing or any other type of racing. It's to sell you their product by showing you why it's the best.. because it's winning don't ya know?

Do you think the AMA will allow a 4 stroke KX500AF to enter a race with the 4 stroke 450s? Not a chance because it would be a huge embarrassment when the 2 stroke laps the 450s while shaving 2-3 seconds off each lap in a 20 lap main. That is called getting lapped.

- Great post Frank.

I hear and believe all of what you are saying. The masses thinking is always governed and influenced by the minority - most of the time without realizing they are behaving like sheep. We're all guilty of it on some level or another and sometimes we just need to stop what we're doing and actually look at the bigger picture.

Just quietly, I think something great is happening with the two strokes. There's a real opportunity awaiting the dirt bike manufacturers who continue to push the development of two strokes. They can't pull the wool over the masses eyes for ever. And when certain companies start cranking out exceptional, modern two stroke weapons the sheep will jump the fence!

Then we can say.. "I told you so..".

Hayden

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Apr 28, 2013
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Why 2 Strokes Are Better
by: Anonymous

I currently ride a crf450 and greatly enjoy the bike but I must say I am on the side of the 2 stroke engine. There is no comparison, cc vs cc is the fairest and most efficient way to set a reasonable standard for racing, it's that simple.

The whole EPA emissions standards against 2 strokes is a joke, recreational vehicles do not put out even .001% of the total pollution in this country to even make it relevant.

Manufactures specifically Honda which is the biggest and most powerful of the big 4 wanted to create a better image being more "Green" while at the same time selling the public on the idea of some vast expansive innovation that would revolutionize off road racing MX and in turn make huge amounts of profit, which they have done in so many ways.

Are 4 strokes better? Not Really, considering decade old 2 stroke technology can pretty much compete head to head while at a displacement disadvantage and without any innovation or R&D being put into them. While also being much less expensive to buy maintain and rebuild compared to 2 strokes.

Apr 29, 2012
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To Hayden
by: Anonymous

Yes there are benefits to one and the other, no questions about it as it is impossible to have only downsides.

Having fun isn't the most important thing in the world so things this serious shouldn't be judged by the 'having fun' criteria people can have fun with a lot of other things.

The only reason to have an endless debate 2stroke vs 4stroke is because of an idiotic fanboy culture on both sides, facts, proof and valid reasoning against empirical knowledge, denial and circular logic.

There are a lot of so called 'endless' debates that have really simple and easy conclusions that would set them once and for all, this one in particular from the ones I know, I must say it's one of the simplest, but people may not really want to solve problems by taking unbiased approaches, they may want to create it by just picking a side from the get go, or being always right even if they're wrong just to prove they're better than the other guy.

This is the final message I'm going to post because I'm being a complete idiot to discuss something objectively with fanatics, it never works, why should this time be any different.

The only thing more I have to say to you is that if someone you know suffers a stroke or lung cancer and dies just keep your big smile on your face because you just wanted to have some fun
(Or just think they had fun dying or that you didn't even like them so it's good they died, whatever suits you best and makes your conscience feel clean).

P.S. Your answers were always cordial and nice because you are pretty much doing your job but you don't respect anyones opinion like you say because dismissing an opinion that has a backed up value of truth without disproving it first isn't respect, it's quite the opposite.

Thank you very much for this experience, it was quite an enlightenment.

- Glad I could enlighten you!

Hayden -

Apr 11, 2012
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To Hayden
by: Not really anonymous

If you think cc per cc it's as fair as it gets how about liter per liter or power stroke per power stroke?

Picture this, a bicylidrical 2 stroke 250cc engine and a bicylindrical 4 stroke 250cc engine both at 4000rpm.

On this situation the 2 stroke will effectively do 8000 power strokes of 125cc each, and the 4 stroke will effectively do 4000 power strokes of 125cc each, which means that a 4 stroke for the same displacement does half the work, and also consumes half the fuel.

Considering that a bike can't do work without fuel and that the energy that is transfered to the wheels comes from burning fuel, then a fair comparison will be available power per unit of fuel per unit of time.

If you do comparison cc by cc basically you are requiring something impossible to happen that is that 4 strokes generate work out of thin air or have a fuel efficiency higher than 100%, 2 strokes don't do it, why should 4 strokes do it? In fact, nothing could really do it so far so basically that comparison leads to a current physical and thermodynamic impossibility that is perpetual motion.

I own a 2 stroke, I have no reason to badmouth them and I'm not trying to do that either, the point is that I arrived at this article from a Google search and some things just tick me off, like nonsense about technical subjects or people that are fanboys about whatever it may be and blatantly disregard any logic about the subject that may be negative to the flawed point they're trying to make.

- Hmmm I can see we're not going to see eye to eye on this one Mr or Mrs Anonymous. But all this talk, all these conflicting opinions and all of the disagreements make for an interesting website that brings people like you to it to read and engage and occasionally become ticked off. Life would be boring if we all agreed on everything. This subject of two stroke vs four stroke on my site was never intended to solve the never-ending argument of which is better or make peoples minds up for them.

At the end of the day there are pros and cons for both 2 and 4 stroke so ride whatever you like as long as you're having fun I say. And if people want to share their opinion along the way... tell them to do it here!

Hayden -

Apr 08, 2012
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Yes... but...
by: Anonymous

Yes 2 strokes are faster cc for cc, but that's hardly the point and it's the most commonly used argument to defend 2 strokes.

Not everyone is a racer, most people have bikes to go to work.

If you know something about motors then you know it's not fair to pair up a 450 4 stroke with 500 2 strokes, but a 250 2 stroke with a 500 4 stroke.

- Really? You think that's fair? I think cc for cc is about as fair as it gets.
Hayden -

Dec 26, 2011
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Enlightened
by: Anonymous

I have a crf 450 - don't know about lap times or stats. I just know I love two strokes and my next bike will be one.

May 12, 2011
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2 Stroke Revival
by: Frank

Thank you Hayden and you nailed it, there is a 2 stroke revival taking place that doesn't look like it's going away anytime soon.


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